Walker Hayes on Recovery and Resilience

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Episode Transcript

Elizabeth Vargas:

Walker Hayes, welcome to Heart of the Matter. Great to have you here. Been a fan of yours for a while.

Walker Hayes:

Hello.

Elizabeth Vargas:

So I just love the fact that you are open about being sober, open about what it was like for you then, and that you actually write so many songs about it now. It’s really something. Tell me about that creative process and why that works for you.

Walker Hayes:

I’m super just grateful to the Lord that he’s given me the story that he has to tell. I’m not honestly that articulate soul to soul. There’s a lot of times when I’m with my kids or my wife or with folks like you, and I would love to say what’s in my brain and my heart, but God gave me the gift of songwriting to compartmentalize what’s going on inside what I’ve been through. And honestly, it’s been the cheapest therapy I’ve ever had. I’m so grateful that I found that form of expression. I’m oftentimes kind of bummed that I found it so late, didn’t start writing songs till my twenties. But yeah, it’s always served me. It really does each and every day. It’s a therapeutic process for me. And that’s kind of always where my songs have come from.

And again, I’ve walked through a lot of battles, addictions, loss, just struggles, and they all come out in songs. And that’s definitely what I gravitate towards writing about, things that I’ve actually walked through, and feelings that I struggle to express. And thank goodness it’s provided a living for my family. But even still, it’s a very healthy exercise for me. And what a win, right, for my occupation to be a healthy form of expression.
But yeah, addiction is… I’ve been near it my whole life. It runs in my family, and I picked up some of that and I’m working on it with my kids. And so yeah, I’m definitely vocal about that. And oftentimes it’s not necessarily like, “Hey, I have this figured out.” A lot of times it’s like, “Hey, I don’t have this figured out, anybody out there? Anybody out there with me? Because that would be nice.”

Elizabeth Vargas:

I think there are a lot of people out there with you.

Walker Hayes:

Right, right. And there are. That’s been another blessing about just saying, “I’m struggling.” When you say that out loud, which I don’t think we’re naturally born going, “Hey, I’m hurting.” That’s not our tendency. But when you say, “Hey, oh my goodness, I don’t know. This is hard.”

Praise the Lord, you always get a, “Hey, me too.”

And that is so, man, just so helpful. I know my wife and I experienced that in our marriage just saying, “Hey, is anybody in… Marriage hard for anybody? It’d be nice if somebody ever walked through this and made it to the other side.” So yeah, I’m grateful that there’s people hurting like me, I guess, out there.

Elizabeth Vargas:

It’s funny, so many of your songs, you talk about your battle with addiction to alcohol, the profound loss of a baby that you and your wife lost stillborn at full term. And yet, so many of your songs are happy sounding. Fancy Like is just a joyous song. Huge, huge, massive hit. But I’m even talking about your song, Same Drunk, which is all about how we’re all addicted to something. It doesn’t have to be a substance. Addicted, as you point out in the song, to looking better or just the things in life, whether it be our jobs, whether it be exercise, which is a healthy thing, but we can all get sort of latched on to something and cling too tight to something being the answer for everything else. Yet the songs are so upbeat when you’re talking about hard stuff. And hard truths.

Walker Hayes:

Man, what you just said, I honestly need to record that and play it every morning because that’s really ultimately, for me, that’s what life is about, everyday facing… Like you said, we are, what you said, we’re a culture where our hearts are exposed every day. And they’re exposed in beautiful things. Like you said, exercise is great, but when it’s your god, it’s not. It’s not. And to me, that’s a great simple example of how something healthy, our hearts take it, and misunderstand it, and it makes us feel good. And then we take it to a level of damage. It’s like, “Where’s Dad?”
“Well, he’s in the gym three hours,” and his life, literally, his Lord and Savior is Planet Fitness. And if he can even get a little more shredded, he might even come home and be a better dad.

And then you’re like, “Man, that’s not the healthiest thing,” which it’s not the exercise that’s bad. Again, it’s not these beautiful things in life that are bad, it’s our hearts that begin to bow down to them.
I know that God just wants me to look outwardly towards this little house that we have, my wife and my kids. And one thing I feel like is I want to leave them with is, “Life’s tough. Your sin, your nastiness is going to be exposed. It’s okay. It’s all right. That’s the point. There’s a Savior who literally is the key to everything. And that’s the point is to analyze, be aware, ‘Hey, I’m addicted to coffee. Oh my goodness.'”
You know what I mean? That’s the point is every day to discover layers of that. And awareness, not only to just improve our lives and to be loved by the Lord and to live our fullest life, but also to relate, to look at other people and their struggles and not judge, but go. “Yeah, man. I know. I know it’s tough.”

Elizabeth Vargas:

“Me too.” So let’s go into your story a little bit. You started actually drinking quite young. You were 13 years old. Was it just around and accessible? Why did you start drinking so young?

Walker Hayes:

Yeah. Actually, my first drink was when I was 13, and I was on a school playground at night with a group of older kids, older than me. They were probably 15 to 17. And if you’re 13, so much development at that age, and then there’s so much insecurity at that age. And I’m telling you, it just met me where I was.

I was awkward, couldn’t talk to this girl. And I was hanging out with older kids just trying to fit in. And I popped that top to that Zima, and I’m one of those people who probably felt it before it even touched my lips. And I went from probably a little wallflower to life of the party immediately. And sadly, it just answered a lot of… It was the key ingredient to my childhood. And I hate that. But I remember that night vividly. I just went from kind of scared, timid to seemingly brave.

Elizabeth Vargas:

You picked up for the same reason many do, to soften the edges, a little liquid courage. It changes everything about yourself that you wish wasn’t the way it was. But it quickly, over the years, escalated to the point where you say you were drinking all day every day. Talk about that period if you can.

Walker Hayes:

Oh, yeah. So this continued to… It ebbed and flowed in waves. And it seemed like the heavier life got, the more often I was drinking. Had a little point in my twenties where I actually stopped for 9 to 10 months and wrongfully said, “Oh, I figured it out. I beat it.”

And then honestly, within six weeks, I didn’t know how I got home. It was one of those quick scenarios where I was like, “Oh, I guess I didn’t beat that, knock that out.”

But yeah, I got to where I was very manipulative about it, lying about it, lying about how many I’d had to certain points. I got to say, my life literally revolved around how am I getting my next one? It was my oxygen. And that’s it. Whether I was hanging with my kids, whether I was working… And again, my wife, if she was sitting here right next to me, she would kindly remind me, I still struggle with guilt sometimes looking back.

Elizabeth Vargas:

Sure.

Walker Hayes:

And she would say, “No, no, no, you loved us. You were function…”
That was the scary part is, the things I was doing in the dark, I was a mastermind. I could hide it. I knew all the roads to take to not get a DUI. I knew everything to pour it in, where to go, who to drink with. I could hide it very well. I spent holidays with my family, sneaking off, mixing a drink and then interacting. I’d show up to work. I knew where to hide it behind a certain pallet of apples at Costco. My life had… Honestly, it’s like I was living another life that no one knew about, not even the closest people to me. Which again, it’s like, “Wow, man, humans, they’re very capable. We’re kind of smart.” You know what I mean?

And so anyway, it got to a point where the rhythm was, wake up, clock in at 4:00 A.M. at Costco, vodka in my coffee, always had a handle under the seat. Went to write after two Twisted Teas at the same gas station, continually drinking while I was writing. Hit a bar on the way home. Come home, drink. And I would sit on this yellow couch with my kids and dogs, and I’d basically fall asleep with a drink in my hand. And my wife would take it out of my hand before I spilled it. I know, sadly, that was her routine is, “Is Walker asleep? I better take that drink before he spills it on him.” And that was it. That was me. I mean, that was my life.

Elizabeth Vargas:

Vodka and coffee, that’s… Whoa.

Walker Hayes:

I know, it’s not good. Yeah, it’s not the tastiest, but it was concealable. Nobody really ever asked me about that cup. I remember I even got pulled over on the way to work one morning. I was just a dude with his coffee on the way to work. Nobody… But it was really sad looking back. I’m embarrassed when I talk about it.

But also, there’s an element of confidence that I know there’s somebody listening, not liking that element of their life, wanting an escape. It’s a prison where I sincerely desired relief. I desired the keys. How do you get out of this? But you also are really comfortable. It’s like being in a bad relationship. It’s killing you, but you’re super scared of what’s out there in the world without it. There’s a frightening aspect to healing.

Elizabeth Vargas:

Did your wife or anybody else in your life, say, “Walker, you need to stop or even cut back?” Or were you able to really function well enough and hide effectively enough what you were doing that nobody did?

Walker Hayes:

I want to answer this so it can help anybody that’s around it. There’s kind of two answers. One is my wife, she was very, very patient with me. And honestly, based on the amounts I was drinking and my denial or lie, I outwardly was in denial. But I knew that it was a problem. I was slow to admit it. But she would say, “Hey, let’s talk,” continually. “Let’s talk. You want to talk about this?”

And there was a night where I spilled. I said, “Laney, I know I have a problem. I know that this is problematic. I don’t think you’re going to like me. If you think I’m messed up this way, without it. I’m scared. I don’t know. I’m going to be more messed up.”

Elizabeth Vargas:

You were afraid she wouldn’t love you or like you sober?

Walker Hayes:

Not necessarily that. I just knew I was afraid of the raw feelings without the armor of alcohol, if that makes any sense.

Elizabeth Vargas:

Yeah, total sense.

Walker Hayes:

And then as far as, no one ever sat me down and said, “You have a problem.”

And to that, I’d love to add for a second as a sober person, I’ve been sober 10 years, and there’s an enemy anytime I’m telling, it’s crazy, anytime I confront someone out of just bold honesty, and I have, honestly, it gives me a lot of mercy for anyone who wanted to say something to me. It’s very intimidating. You run the risk of losing a friend, pushing someone away. But I have had scary, scary conversations with friends, and I’ve said, “Hey, man, it’s almost selfish for me to say this to you, because it won’t get off my back, but I have to let you know, I think you’re drinking too much. And you can be mad. You can hate me. You can say, ‘Shut up.’ You can do anything. But I can’t go one more day.”
And I say this to them because I look back… And at first I was a little frustrated like, “Why didn’t anybody say something to me? Who are my real friends?”

But it’s hard. It’s hard. It’s very scary. It’s hard to say that to someone. But I did wish somebody had just lovingly sat me down and said, “Look, let’s get you some help. You need some.”

And honestly, I’m not sure I would’ve listened, but I’m kind of on a mission now. I don’t know if that’s a part of my healing process. But man, anytime I see someone, I badly want to have a breakfast with them or something and go, “Look, this can be the last time you ever see me in your life. I have nothing to gain from you getting sober. It doesn’t matter, but you need help.” And I love doing that. I’m okay with doing that, but it never gets not scary, if that makes any sense.

Elizabeth Vargas:

Well, the key word that you used there was lovingly, because how you say that to somebody matters. If you come out attacking and in an accusatory, judgmental way, people who are drinking too much or using drugs are doing it because they basically don’t like themselves or don’t feel comfortable with themselves. So having an outsider say in a judgmental way, and to be harsh, it goes straight to… It’s the least effective thing you could do. There’s a lot of ways. So you got sober because you finally woke up one morning. You said this in a previous interview. “I woke up, and physically, I’ve never felt like this before. It wasn’t even a hangover. It just felt like if I start again and do this, I might die.” Tell me about that morning.

Walker Hayes:

I don’t know how to describe it. It just felt like physical decay. It felt like death. Honestly, I wonder if I had poisoned myself to some limit where I almost detested, not the taste, but just all of it. I can’t express it. Honestly, it was a miracle, but it was also just… It just felt terrible. And I did. I was like, “I feel like if I go to this to heal this today, I might not wake up tomorrow.”

And a lot of my life at that time, it was exhaustion. Where I was with life, I think we had had our sixth kid. I was waking up… My alarm went off at 3:00 in the morning every day. And I wasn’t able to go to bed on time. And so just the cycle of believing I was invincible, just caught up. And the alcohol, I really think my insides were poisoned. And I think probably for a while I had been remedying that with just starting over every day.

It’s almost like to reach a below normal line, I was having to consume so much. But yeah, I can’t describe it. And again, I see it as very miraculous. That rock bottom, that physical, rock bottom was so humbling to me that a very, very stubborn, addicted human, kind of got slapped awake. It was an awakening like, “Hey, man, you’re 35, and you feel 100.”

Elizabeth Vargas:

So you were able to stop that day?

Walker Hayes:

Well, I stopped out of survival.

Elizabeth Vargas:

You go to a doctor? That’s a-

Walker Hayes:

No.

Elizabeth Vargas:

Wow.

Walker Hayes:

Honestly, I’m afraid of doctors.

Elizabeth Vargas:

But alcohol withdrawal can be deadly. How did you get through it?

Walker Hayes:

The first few days were just kind of a blur, almost like a traveling from this deadly fog into clarity. And I could feel it each and every day, youth coming back, if that makes any sense. Just clarity and youthful and a remembrance of like, “Oh, this is fresh.” Like a shower, even taking a shower, not wasted and being like, “It’s so warm. I just want to sit here and this feels so good.”

And then, belly laughs, just clearly feeling sunshine. I know it sounds silly, but just light, experiencing a blanket and being like, “Oh, this is cozy.”

And honestly, I am a hundred percent sure… I’m not a genius. I don’t speak like some professor. But my addiction to sobriety came very quickly. It was like, “Ooh, I love this.”

And so, praise God, I was captured by the emotions and the feelings of nice things, nice feelings, and hugging Laney, and kissing her without being hammered and things like that, and butterflies and things. But eventually, hurtful things happened, and fears came, and stresses of work came. And by the grace of God, I was able to communicate with my wife mainly and say, “I got a show tonight, and my fingers aren’t working, and my voice doesn’t feel… I’m not confident. I’ve never sung a show sober. What am I going to do?” And I bombed. The show was terrible, but it was a victory for me. It was victorious to go, “Well, that’s a-”

Elizabeth Vargas:

Because you did it sober?

Walker Hayes:

Right. And I remember every drop of that show. I remember I finished a song and my hand instinctively reaching for a drink and being like, “Oh, it’s water.” And I noticed every… It’s almost like I was just drinking from the fire hose of your senses.

And a lot of it was good, but then a lot of it was heavy. And it was like, “I haven’t thought about my mom sober in a while. I haven’t thought about my dad sober in a while. I haven’t missed my brother.” It was left and right, just clear.

Elizabeth Vargas:

You say you got sober at the age of 35.

Walker Hayes:

Right, right.

Elizabeth Vargas:

That’s like you’d lived your entire adult life drinking from morning till night. You really were learning how to be a person, be a man, be a husband, be a father, be a brother, be a son.

Walker Hayes:

Exactly.

Elizabeth Vargas:

Learning how to do all those things without that crutch of alcohol. It’s a big deal.

Walker Hayes:

It was. It was like kind of rebirth, a hundred percent. And my occupation was so built… And Laney and I are good, but our relationship started drunk. My kids knew drunk, fun dad. That’s who they knew. I had always written songs drunk. I was scared that I might not be able to write anything again that I thought was good. I was afraid I’d never be able to play a show again without almost throwing up, because I was so scared on stage. Alcohol had really assisted me in doing things that our culture applauds. And so, that was really hard to lose my crutches, because then I got to go out and do these things that the world used to be excited about, me being in love, being in a relationship, having a job, singing, writing, performing, dancing. And now I’ve lost my magic potion that everybody didn’t know was helping me.

But then it also… I’m a competitive person, and so I kind of, enjoyed isn’t the right word, but the challenge of, it’s not going to beat me. It’s okay. I’m going to do life without it. And I think that’s a tendency of a lot of people who get sober. There’s probably a moment where that battle, that battle is helpful. I have a song called, Beer in the Fridge, and there was a beer in my refrigerator of my shack, and me and that beer, we duked it out every day. I’d open it… And I don’t recommend this to anyone, I think everybody has a different story. And this beer was a very important part of my recovery is, opening that fridge, looking at it and just physically shutting the door.

Elizabeth Vargas:

Choosing not to drink it?

Walker Hayes:

Right. That’s what I did every day is, look at that beer and go, “Nope, if I taste you, I go backwards, and I don’t like me loving you, and so I’m going to shut the door on you. I’m not going to be a slave to you. You do have power. I’m weak. You can really mess me up, but not if I don’t crack you open.” And so that was part of my healing process.

Elizabeth Vargas:

It’s so ironic and so amazing and wonderful that you were worried, “I won’t ever be able to write a song again. I won’t ever be able to perform in concert again. I won’t be able to sing and dance the way without being so nervous again.” And yet, all of your huge career success has come after you got sober.

Walker Hayes:

Yeah. Laney and I laugh. Yeah, I don’t know. I don’t know what to say about that. I hate putting… I don’t ever want to put words in God’s mouth, but if you look at my life, that’s definitely got to make your head kind of tilt weird. “He was here from ’04 to,” like you said, “that year till he was 35, and all of a sudden his career kind of began to…” It’s weird. Is that a cause and effect here? And I would say, yeah, I might actually do life better with clarity without that alcohol.

Elizabeth Vargas:

Yeah. It turns out, despite all of your fear, that you were better at writing songs.

Walker Hayes:

Yes, yes.

Elizabeth Vargas:

You were better at performing on stage. You were better at singing and dancing.

Walker Hayes:

Right.

Elizabeth Vargas:

You were better at being a husband and a dad. All the things that you felt you needed alcohol to do, it turned out you were better doing them without alcohol.

Walker Hayes:

A hundred percent. A hundred percent.

Elizabeth Vargas:

And that’s the thing, people who are in the grip of addiction don’t realize. They think, “I need this in order to,” fill in the blank. But in essence, you would do whatever, fill in the blank is better without it.

Walker Hayes:

Man, amen. I think that’s all addiction. Even back to what you said in the beginning, even the healthy ones, the things that are truly important to you, have a better chance of survival and thriving without whatever that is that you’re leaning on too much. But yeah, in my case, work’s been like that to me. Work’s been an addiction. Obviously, alcohol. Exercise has been an addiction. Relevance has been an addiction. The list goes on and on.

Elizabeth Vargas:

You’ve been sober for a decade. There was only one time when you almost relapsed. That was after the death of your baby. I think that a lot of people in recovery often wonder, “What would happen if I faced tragedy? How would I not go back to the thing that hurt me so much just to cope with it?”

You write that you actually, and you’ve said that you actually went to a bar with the intent to have a drink after your baby died. She was full term, your wife nearly died in delivery, very traumatic. You had forgotten your wallet, so you couldn’t buy a drink. So the only reason you didn’t relapse that day is because you didn’t have the cash you needed or the card you needed to buy a drink. And then went back home and saw your wife sitting in the dark and knew instantly that that was where you needed to be, not the bar.

Walker Hayes:

Oh, yeah. Again, and it was just such an embarrassing moment to speak about, but I also just love to share it, because I know everyone’s felt this way or will if you live long enough. The day that we buried Oakley, it was just too much to process. We looked at our kid in a casket for the last time that we would ever see her body, and she was perfect. She was in a dress with a teddy bear, and it just… I’m a 37-year-old guy. I’m not that smart. I love my family more than anything. Each kid, they crush me how much I want to love my kids as best as I can, and I know I fail. But we’re looking at this baby and we close it and we take the box and then put it in another box. And then we go out to the grave and we just put our hands on that box, and then it goes down in the ground. And then me and my sons…

Laney is inconsolable. There’s dirt everywhere. They hand us some shovels. Me and my sons just quietly… We’re sweating. It’s in June. We bury her till the ground is level. We stand there and we just go home. I don’t know what to say. It’s just crushing. And we go home. All I knew how to do… I get in my Honda and I drive to 55 South, and the largest emotion is frustration.

I want to fix my kid. I don’t want them to be sad. I don’t want to be sad. I want to make sense. I just want to wake up and this be a dream. My best friend, my wife, who I don’t know if I can humanly love anything more, she’s inconsolable. I can’t make her laugh. For the first time in my life, I don’t know how to help her. And then helping her helps me. And so, I’m at a loss, and I drove to 55 South, and there were three guys. I could see three guys at the bar. Honestly, I just wanted to fight. I wanted to go in there and have a couple drinks, pick a fight, and I almost wanted them to just obliterate me, but I was going to give them everything I had. Just that kind of thing.

And as I opened my door, my wallet wasn’t in it. And that forced me to go back home. And when I came back home that day, when I walked in, I saw Laney by herself, lights off, just sunlight coming through the window. And I just saw her on the couch. And that was better than looking in a mirror. That was a self-reflection going, “What on earth would I do that for? Why would I take all these problems that we have-”

Elizabeth Vargas:

And make them worse?

Walker Hayes:

Oh goodness, yeah. And now, I’m make my wife come pick me up from jail? And so at that moment, I really saw myself for some of the worst things that I’m capable of. And so, Laney and I talked and she still had to… In all her grief, she was helping me at that moment. And she found me an AA meeting. And I went to this AA meeting. This was wild. On the way to the AA meeting that was a massive, massive rainbow. And it didn’t make me feel good. I was kind of mad at it.

Elizabeth Vargas:

You’re mad at the rainbow?

Walker Hayes:

Yeah. I was just like, stupid-

Elizabeth Vargas:

Don’t show me beauty right now. I’m really having a bad day.

Walker Hayes:

Yeah. I was like, “I hate everything pretty right now.”
And I walked into this AA meeting, and praise God, I didn’t talk to one person and no one talked to me. And I’m sure I just had the demeanor of, “If you talk to me, you’re going to wish you hadn’t.”

And I sat down and I stared at my shoe. I still remember the shoes I had on, and they had dirt on them from the cemetery. And I just thought, “What a wild day.” I just was thinking, “I buried my kid today.”

I’m looking at the dirt from the cemetery on my shoe in this metal chair at this weird meeting. And the first guy stood up and he told his story, and I don’t remember this guy. I don’t remember anything he said. But the first words out of his mouth were, “I was so angry.” That is the first sentence he said. And that’s all I remember. And I listened-

Elizabeth Vargas:

Because you related to that.

Walker Hayes:

Oh, my God. It was literally like there could not have been a more… For me, in my life, he just said it. Again back to, “Hey, I do, too. Me too.”

That sentence, it just penetrated my heart. And again, I wasn’t like, “Oh God, you said the same thing.” I wasn’t feeling very receptive right then. I still wanted to fight something.

And anyway, I made it through the meeting. I left. I never said, “Thank you,” or, “Man, that was really special what you said.”

I just went home and we continued to grieve. I remember having a talk with my friend, Craig, and we cried. We basically just got on the phone and cried together. I don’t think we said anything. But that was probably the closest I’ve come. There’s been moments where I’m in a hotel and I think things like, “Hey, no one would know,” but I know that those feelings are… Praise God, I tell people about those.

Elizabeth Vargas:

Right.

Walker Hayes:

I’ll call a friend. I’ll call Laney and go, “Man, it’s tough out here tonight.” And I’ll explain to her. But yeah, that moment was a true test. Like you said, that was real. That wasn’t just like past tense insecurities coming back or demon, that was a-

Elizabeth Vargas:

No. That was a real-

Walker Hayes:

Yeah, that was a real, “I don’t want to feel anything right now.”

Elizabeth Vargas:

And nobody else would blame you for that.

Walker Hayes:

Right.

Elizabeth Vargas:

Nobody would want to go through that, feeling that. And yet, we are presented with things in life that we must either walk through or-

Walker Hayes:

Yeah.

Elizabeth Vargas:

Walker Hayes, listen, you are helping so many people, first of all, by just talking and telling us your story. But the songs you write, I can’t overemphasize how important that is. You reach people in a whole different way with these songs. And so many of them about your journey to sobriety. So many of them about how we all latch onto things that we shouldn’t, but you do it oddly in a song. It’s without judgment. You’re not the only singer-songwriter who’s sober, who also writes about that battle. And every time I hear one of you guys singing the song, it helps me. I know it helps other people who might be still struggling. It’s a real gift. So, thank you for that. I really appreciate it.

Walker Hayes:

Well, I appreciate that encouragement. That really means the world. And thanks for what you do. This is awesome. I think more people need to have the conversations like this every day. That’s what I live for.

Elizabeth Vargas:

I do too. I do too. Walker Hayes, looking forward to the next big hit coming from you.

Walker Hayes:

Let’s go.

Elizabeth Vargas:

All right, thanks, Walker.

Walker Hayes:

Thank you.